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	<title>Comments on: 50/200 Moving Average Crossover System on Dow Jones Industrials</title>
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	<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13173</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 21:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13173</guid>
		<description>Bill that is always where this discussion leads. Defining "works". There are scores of academic papers on the subject. By trying to take the argument of it doesn't work leads me into a whole myriad of issues we must first define and quantify. Then we have to agree on a reasonable test, then we have to answer a zillion questions of data integrity, then I have to get the noobies up to speed. I honestly don't have the time or desire to even go there. Suffice it to say each trader has his tools and in the end only performance matters. I'll leave the does or does not work to the academics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill that is always where this discussion leads. Defining &#8220;works&#8221;. There are scores of academic papers on the subject. By trying to take the argument of it doesn&#8217;t work leads me into a whole myriad of issues we must first define and quantify. Then we have to agree on a reasonable test, then we have to answer a zillion questions of data integrity, then I have to get the noobies up to speed. I honestly don&#8217;t have the time or desire to even go there. Suffice it to say each trader has his tools and in the end only performance matters. I&#8217;ll leave the does or does not work to the academics.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill aka NO DooDahs!</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13160</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill aka NO DooDahs!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 15:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13160</guid>
		<description>It seems from Dr. Koch's comments on this thread, and on the Wealth-Lab thread that you link to in another post, that he believes trend following systems don't work, when clearly they DO work for some people, just not in his testing.  

That's what I was getting at; nothing specifically about you, but since the comments from Koch were here, I addressed them here.  Sorry for any confusion that may have caused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems from Dr. Koch&#8217;s comments on this thread, and on the Wealth-Lab thread that you link to in another post, that he believes trend following systems don&#8217;t work, when clearly they DO work for some people, just not in his testing.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s what I was getting at; nothing specifically about you, but since the comments from Koch were here, I addressed them here.  Sorry for any confusion that may have caused.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13159</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 14:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13159</guid>
		<description>Bill I am not sure what your getting at. I trade many systems. Trend, counter trend, and everything in between.

And many timeframes from intraday to weekly bars.

http://dayvejohnson.blogspot.com/2005/10/hope-you-didnt-get-sucked-in.html

http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/03/27/are-you-diversified-no-really-really-diversified/

Maybe those will give you a bit more insight to how I approach the market.

Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill I am not sure what your getting at. I trade many systems. Trend, counter trend, and everything in between.</p>
<p>And many timeframes from intraday to weekly bars.</p>
<p><a href="http://dayvejohnson.blogspot.com/2005/10/hope-you-didnt-get-sucked-in.html" rel="nofollow">http://dayvejohnson.blogspot.com/2005/10/hope-you-didnt-get-sucked-in.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/03/27/are-you-diversified-no-really-really-diversified/" rel="nofollow">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/03/27/are-you-diversified-no-really-really-diversified/</a></p>
<p>Maybe those will give you a bit more insight to how I approach the market.</p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill aka NO DooDahs!</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13158</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill aka NO DooDahs!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 13:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13158</guid>
		<description>Simple stuff like this you can do in a spreadsheet.  Or whatever software you're using, if you track the ins and outs, you can approximate it.  Slow systems like the one shown will generally be out for months at a time, long enough to buy some T's and hold to expiry.  

Software like http://www.tradingblox.com/ (I'm not a user, but I like their forum) includes adjustments for divvies and splits on stocks, accounting for margin interest and risk-free rate, etc.  It's probably the best route for testing more complicated trend-following systems on a basket of leveraged issues, which is where probably most of the trend-followers make their money.

Another note: many of the classical indicators DO work, just not in their default parameters.  14-day RSI is whack, but 2-day RSI shows "fear" on the timeframes Koch mentioned.  Using a percentage-based MACD on a longer parameter than default, one could assemble a relative strength portfolio on a basket of index constituents and outperform the index pretty handily, with relatively low turnover.  Just because you haven't made it work YOURSELF, doesn't mean it WON'T work ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simple stuff like this you can do in a spreadsheet.  Or whatever software you&#8217;re using, if you track the ins and outs, you can approximate it.  Slow systems like the one shown will generally be out for months at a time, long enough to buy some T&#8217;s and hold to expiry.  </p>
<p>Software like <a href="http://www.tradingblox.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.tradingblox.com/</a> (I&#8217;m not a user, but I like their forum) includes adjustments for divvies and splits on stocks, accounting for margin interest and risk-free rate, etc.  It&#8217;s probably the best route for testing more complicated trend-following systems on a basket of leveraged issues, which is where probably most of the trend-followers make their money.</p>
<p>Another note: many of the classical indicators DO work, just not in their default parameters.  14-day RSI is whack, but 2-day RSI shows &#8220;fear&#8221; on the timeframes Koch mentioned.  Using a percentage-based MACD on a longer parameter than default, one could assemble a relative strength portfolio on a basket of index constituents and outperform the index pretty handily, with relatively low turnover.  Just because you haven&#8217;t made it work YOURSELF, doesn&#8217;t mean it WON&#8217;T work &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13157</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 13:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13157</guid>
		<description>Absolutely incomplete. Remember the article was based upon the original article I pointed to. Obviously a very simple test. My point really was to show how the opposite in it's simplest form kept up with the "safe" concept.
Maybe you have the capability to incorporate dividends and cash holding?
Thanks for the comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely incomplete. Remember the article was based upon the original article I pointed to. Obviously a very simple test. My point really was to show how the opposite in it&#8217;s simplest form kept up with the &#8220;safe&#8221; concept.<br />
Maybe you have the capability to incorporate dividends and cash holding?<br />
Thanks for the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill aka NO DooDahs!</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13156</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill aka NO DooDahs!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 13:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13156</guid>
		<description>Then it's an incomplete test, isn't it?  Dividends won't make too much difference, neither will taxes, if the system trades infrequently, since most gains will be "capital gains" in a slow-moving trend system.  

Very few timing systems on the major stock indices outperform buy+hold over long period on a "cash to the mattress" basis, when CAGR is the only metric.  A proper comparison for any in/out system should include the returns of the competing investment, in this case, cash in a money market account, 30- or 90-day T's, etc.  

It should also measure the volatility-adjusted results, since that's the primary purpose of timing for many participants, avoiding volatility.  Kelly Criterion is optimal position sizing from a CAGR standpoint, but I doubt many people would view its drawdown characteristics as "optimal" with their own money at risk.

That may be why Dr. Koch hasn't found trend-following systems to work; he hasn't tested them properly (accounting for alternate returns), and hasn't applied proper metrics for comparing results.  Very few people are interested in CAGR only, and many that say they are, won't be anymore, after a big account drawdown.

There's a certain arrogance in saying "I haven't been able to see this work, ergo, it doesn't" - especially when many other people HAVE seen it work.  I used to be guilty of that sin, and have been trying to root it out for the past few years.

Aside from that, 50/200 simple moving average isn't optimal in my testing.  I found the general area of 80-120 and 160-200, with exponential moving averages, to be a bit better.  The main benefit is avoiding prolonged bear markets.

FWIW, I agree that the fear concept is very useful, although it's far from the only useful one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then it&#8217;s an incomplete test, isn&#8217;t it?  Dividends won&#8217;t make too much difference, neither will taxes, if the system trades infrequently, since most gains will be &#8220;capital gains&#8221; in a slow-moving trend system.  </p>
<p>Very few timing systems on the major stock indices outperform buy+hold over long period on a &#8220;cash to the mattress&#8221; basis, when CAGR is the only metric.  A proper comparison for any in/out system should include the returns of the competing investment, in this case, cash in a money market account, 30- or 90-day T&#8217;s, etc.  </p>
<p>It should also measure the volatility-adjusted results, since that&#8217;s the primary purpose of timing for many participants, avoiding volatility.  Kelly Criterion is optimal position sizing from a CAGR standpoint, but I doubt many people would view its drawdown characteristics as &#8220;optimal&#8221; with their own money at risk.</p>
<p>That may be why Dr. Koch hasn&#8217;t found trend-following systems to work; he hasn&#8217;t tested them properly (accounting for alternate returns), and hasn&#8217;t applied proper metrics for comparing results.  Very few people are interested in CAGR only, and many that say they are, won&#8217;t be anymore, after a big account drawdown.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a certain arrogance in saying &#8220;I haven&#8217;t been able to see this work, ergo, it doesn&#8217;t&#8221; - especially when many other people HAVE seen it work.  I used to be guilty of that sin, and have been trying to root it out for the past few years.</p>
<p>Aside from that, 50/200 simple moving average isn&#8217;t optimal in my testing.  I found the general area of 80-120 and 160-200, with exponential moving averages, to be a bit better.  The main benefit is avoiding prolonged bear markets.</p>
<p>FWIW, I agree that the fear concept is very useful, although it&#8217;s far from the only useful one.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13155</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 13:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13155</guid>
		<description>Bill in the test I only used price. No dividend or cash allocations were made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill in the test I only used price. No dividend or cash allocations were made.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill aka NO DooDahs!</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13154</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill aka NO DooDahs!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 12:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-13154</guid>
		<description>Did you include the contributions from holding cash during the times the crossover system was out of the market?

Did you evaluate the crossover results from a risk-adjusted perspective, perhaps that of an investor who needs to withdraw funds to live?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you include the contributions from holding cash during the times the crossover system was out of the market?</p>
<p>Did you evaluate the crossover results from a risk-adjusted perspective, perhaps that of an investor who needs to withdraw funds to live?</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. RenÃ© Koch</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3647</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. RenÃ© Koch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3647</guid>
		<description>Please note: "fear in the markets" is already an interpretation. Same for "panic" and similar terms. The only thing that counts: after a "strong" down move, there is a higher than 50% probability for up moves. This is observable on various timeframes, the term "strong" meaning something different in each timeframe, of course.
Just plot past price changes vs. future price changes and you'll see this "pattern".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please note: &#8220;fear in the markets&#8221; is already an interpretation. Same for &#8220;panic&#8221; and similar terms. The only thing that counts: after a &#8220;strong&#8221; down move, there is a higher than 50% probability for up moves. This is observable on various timeframes, the term &#8220;strong&#8221; meaning something different in each timeframe, of course.<br />
Just plot past price changes vs. future price changes and you&#8217;ll see this &#8220;pattern&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3645</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3645</guid>
		<description>Steve thats a great question. Let's see if he responds here. Otherwise I will email him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve thats a great question. Let&#8217;s see if he responds here. Otherwise I will email him.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3644</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3644</guid>
		<description>Do you know what tools, if any, Dr. Koch uses to identify "fear," e.g., VIX, p/c ratio, standard deviation, etc?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you know what tools, if any, Dr. Koch uses to identify &#8220;fear,&#8221; e.g., VIX, p/c ratio, standard deviation, etc?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3621</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3621</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the note on using the log scale. In my haste to get the article published I ended up snapshotting the non-log one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the note on using the log scale. In my haste to get the article published I ended up snapshotting the non-log one.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. RenÃ© Koch</title>
		<link>http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3620</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. RenÃ© Koch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetradingdigest.com/blog/2007/10/11/50200-moving-average-crossover-system-on-dow-jones-industrials/#comment-3620</guid>
		<description>Hi Dave,
very nice article. Looks like these MA-Crossovers will never die...

One remark: You should display long term charts with an log scale always. This scale makes Percentage changes the same size no matter where prices are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dave,<br />
very nice article. Looks like these MA-Crossovers will never die&#8230;</p>
<p>One remark: You should display long term charts with an log scale always. This scale makes Percentage changes the same size no matter where prices are.</p>
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